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[Proposal] Correct Serious 9year Flaw

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True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 50	Posted - 2012.07.30 17:37:00 - [1] - Quote Everyone knows that corporation roles and how they work are flawed and have been for a very long time, but I want to highlight the single biggest flaw which has a negative impact on game experience and social interaction, which in-turn hurts subscriptions and player retention. Simply put: With the current corporation roles, you can only give a player entire access to Factories/Labs, or nothing, there is no inbetween. Problem: Player A and Player B are trusted friends who start a corp together and start producing things, they put up a POS, start researching their blueprints and doing invention. Player A is making Stealth Bombers and Player B is making Jump Freighters. Both players have known each other for years, they are both directors in the corp and have full access to everything. Due to current mechanics, this corporation is basically **-blocked from ever trying to recruit and expand with new members, this is why you see very very few successful industrial corporations in-game and most you do find are very small. They cannot recruit a new player to their corporation, and let the guy build ammo and frigates as he learns manufacturing in-game, because to give him the role to build Tristan's, will in turn give him access to cancel 7billion isk of in-build Jump Freighter, or multiple freighters, stealth bombers etc. It's impossible under the current mechanics to have an industrialist corporation with 30 players, all using shared POS to build ammo, ships, tech 2, tech 3 etc. Solution** Allow the Roles "Rent Factory" and "Rent Laboratory" to enable a player to rent and install jobs in corporation facilities, to see other jobs, but only to be able to cancel/deliver THEIR OWN jobs. This would up corporation recruitment, create more social bonds and greatly increase the chance the players who's primary drive is not PvP to remain playing the game because of those social bonds.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 50	Posted - 2012.07.30 18:36:00 - [2] - Quote Fournone wrote: +2 year CEO reporting. +1 from me. All the roles are horribly broken. Besides POS roles, rent roles are the most broken. And gets far worse when you combine POS and Rent roles. You can still recruit, you just need to force everyone to manufacture in NPC stations with NPC wait lines. There is almost no point in trying to research things in NPC stations, takes forever to get an open spot without a friendly neighborhood research POS. Of course if they have access to those labs to research their Rifter BPO, they can "borrow" my Hurricane BPO while I'm offline. Totally agree with everything you say. I'm sure all of this has been on the 'backlog list' for years and is planned as a huge review of these mechanics, but I really think its gone on too long, and a quick fix like mentioned above in my OP would atleast bandaid the problem until they get a chance to really review all of the roles.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 50	Posted - 2012.07.30 21:59:00 - [3] - Quote Obsidiana wrote: +1 And, I too am a CEO (of a very small corp). My solution has been just to allow players I've known for a long time to join. All players are people who take care of their own blueprints and resources. I keep assets locked away. I think you hit the nail on the head there, problem is if someone gets upset or malicious, they can still trash a 7billion ISK Jump Freighter in production. FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: I've been director of two corps, and see no problem with this proposal. edit: You can use more than one POS to solve this problem. One with its own password for the "trusted" guys, where high-end production is done, and at least one other that will allow anyone in the corp through the shield. I'd really like to be able to configure a POS to allow blues access to labs... Yeah, I think this is the closest thing to a workaround people have used, still doesn't stop the above griefing, you still can't have a situation though where your Researching ME1 on a Titan BPO and let your normal members use your lab services, as again a player could simply undo that 170 days job with a single mouse click, hell they could even do it by accident, which makes corporations wanting to take on unknown/new players even less likely. I want to see a situation where an Industrial based corp can build 3 titans, whilst at the same time a new member can build his frigates and learn industry, in the same corp.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 51	Posted - 2012.07.31 18:04:00 - [4] - Quote Who does a guy have to pod to get a CSM looking?/feedback :)
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 51	Posted - 2012.07.31 21:09:00 - [5] - Quote Xantos Semah wrote: You guys trolling right ? Trolling to ask for something that's been broken for so long to be fixed?
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 51	Posted - 2012.07.31 21:47:00 - [6] - Quote Yeah I get your point, I think this change listed for the reasons mentioned though outways the 'omgcarebear eve' if corporations recruit people and get them involved in game mechanics like research, production, invention etc, said player is more likely to keep playing for the game.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 52	Posted - 2012.08.01 22:26:00 - [7] - Quote Charles Baker wrote: To be honest i'd give CEO's/Directors the ability to 'Lock Down' in progress jobs so only CEO's/Directors can cancel them. I think that's more fiddly and effort (and can kind of be done by flipping roles on and off on members), but still inhibits a corp that's building expensive items from actually encouraging and recruiting new industrialists.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 54	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:59:00 - [8] - Quote Nevryn Takis wrote: +1 from me I'm not going to expand my corp, which I'd love to do, until I can lock down BPO's/BPC's/interface so that corp members can use them but not remove them from either a corp hanger in a staion or a hanger in a lab, and lock down jobs so that people can only cancel their own jobs. Note any member should be able to deliver any ready job .. assuming that invention jobs sucees is determined at the point of instantiation and not delivery. This would prevent slots being blocked because a corp member is on holiday/sick/got other commitments/being a lazy ass.. Hmm, maybe I'm confused, but when the previous job finishes, it doesn't stop someone from using that lab slot, so this isn't needed. You would want to prevent any member from delivering any job, because otherwise your newbie corp member could sneak on to complete a Jump freighter build and deliver it (assuming you have a 'production tab' where members can place their minerals and such in order to run the job). CEO/Director would maintain their current roles, and be able to cancel/complete all jobs being done in corporation owned facilities.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 56	Posted - 2012.08.03 15:23:00 - [9] - Quote Xantos Semah wrote: d) processing gas requires roles that will allow you to offline and unanchor any POS that belong to this corporation I believe you can work around this problem in the POS management window by changing the online/offline option to POS Fueler, rather than Starbase Manager.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 56	Posted - 2012.08.03 15:26:00 - [10] - Quote Magic Crisp wrote: I think the whole role management needs to be reworked. And yes, this is a serious issue. Also we dislike such minor facts, that role-titles are displayed on the character info. because of this some corps are using ascii-art titles without meaning, so outsiders can't even get what kind of roles should that toon bear with. Even more, it'd be needed to give access to arbitrary installations/arrays/whatever to members. And having arbitrary number of wallet divisions, maybe corp hangars. Also alliance-level roles would be nice, even alliance hangars, with roles. Whilst I think you're entirely right, my goal here is to get a hotfix to what I think is the single largest biggest issue with the roles currently, I don't htink anyone dissagree's that a total overhaul is in need.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 60	Posted - 2012.08.06 03:28:00 - [11] - Quote Nofearion wrote: +5 for me CEO, and past Alliance Industrial Director this one issue is a major bar to recruitment into corps and also hurt Newbies from getting in the better indy corps. To those who say CCP is not listening check out the section of discussion on CORP revamps discussed by the CSM and CCP http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_May_June_2012.pdf contact your local CSM and push for the changes you like. Yeah I read that yesterday, my one concern was that it was a single paragraph explaining the problem, but no comment from CCP if they acknowledge/agreed or such. I hope it gets more attention.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 60	Posted - 2012.08.11 14:08:00 - [12] - Quote Raising some more attention to this, I'm hoping at the very least that these factors will be taken into consideration with the POS replacement discussed in the CSM meeting, but to be honest I don't think this should wait any longer than it has already and think this is something worth placing into the very next available patch.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 61	Posted - 2012.08.30 23:30:00 - [13] - Quote Bumping to get more peoples attention and feedback!
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries The Paganism Alliance 63	Posted - 2012.09.26 06:18:00 - [14] - Quote Bringing this up again as it continues to be a major limiting factor that seriously needs attention
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries The Paganism Alliance 76	Posted - 2012.11.20 17:11:00 - [15] - Quote Sean Parisi wrote: The current coding that CCP uses for the role interface / corp interface is limited by its original coding. Because of this it is very difficult for them to add more to the interface. I am pretty sure there are plans in order to deal with this and when they tackle updating the corporation interface and completely reworking it - You will be able to do this. CCP doesn't get off on making it hard for you to do industry. Never implied there was, I just don't think for this particular case they quite understand the negative impact. I understand the limitations based on the original coding (pretty much 9year old code for this stuff), but if they could jerry-rig a change that you don't need "Factory Manager" in order to install jobs and "Rent Factory Slot/Rent laboratory Slot" would only allow you to deliver your own jobs, then it would be a hugely significant change that would allow industrial corporations to actually exist.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries The Paganism Alliance 80	Posted - 2012.12.09 20:41:00 - [16] - Quote Ronan Connor wrote: +1 to OP But I fear that it wont have a chance (see Causality Trailer). They want that betrayal to happen to you. So its not a flaw in ccp's eyes, its a feature. Yeah I get that point, but from really looking into this case I really feel that it's not covered here. if CCP want a corp of players doing science/manufacturing to lure noobies into the game, engage and involve them so those noobies are more likely to make friends, have fun and start paying for the game then this mechanic needs to change. I would love to be in the position where the game mechanics would allow for my corporation to build a titan and at the same time, allow some 1month old player to ME research his frigate BPO. This one single change in mechanics can be summerised in a single statement: Allow a player with the "Rent Factory Slot" or "Rent Laboratory Slot" to install those respective jobs into corporation facilities, without giving them access to deliver/cancel all jobs currently in production by the corporation It's clear from the limited number of people replying to this post and no massive outcry that most people don't see the pure significance of the current functionality, how many people may have tried eve and quit based on this single mechanic alone. Simple question: Are there ANY "Industrial Corporations" in eve, the real answer is no, there aren't any at all. The cloest thing you could find to an industrialist corporation will be a corp made up of half a dozen players who trust eachother due to RL connections, or long eve histories, these guys do T2 invention, build jump freighter, capital ships, whatever. Their other 50 members are miners, maybe doe a little PI and sell it to the corp Imagine this change in place, you could have serious industrialist corps, imagine a corp with 500 blueprints locked down, labs and factories in system, a single member of the corp can come along, drop the minerals in a hanger, select to build 10 megathrons, deliver and collect his ships and sell them, or have them get sold through the corp and the corp pays them for their effort. You could have some seriously active and fun corps and if players are kept that engaged, they are more likely to keep playing for longer.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 103	Posted - 2013.01.13 16:34:00 - [17] - Quote Would love for some CSM/Dev feedback at this point, this suggestion has pretty much stayed on the top page since I submitted it and even though its a slow burning thing, its still a serious issue.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 108	Posted - 2013.01.22 15:05:00 - [18] - Quote Eliniale wrote: Great idea, I've seen similar before but this is neatly summed as to what needs to be fixed asap. I'm running an industrial corp myself, but I'm not willing to allow any acces to pos if i ever do set one up, as it will be a massive security liability. Naturally I'd like to see more borked corp roles fixed, but if this at the very least gets fixed we can at least start moving forward. Completely agree with you, there is a great deal that needs to be fixed :)
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 129	Posted - 2013.02.18 14:00:00 - [19] - Quote Activate CSM Attention module
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 130	Posted - 2013.02.18 15:27:00 - [20] - Quote Ydnari wrote: As it is we're in the ridiculous situation where we can't even give our newer members access to build frigates using corp bpos since that opens up cancelling everything; we can't let them earn trust on little things, so it ends up taking a very long time to get to know them before we can give out what should be a basic access level. The biggest shame is that it's been like this since POS was introduced, and no one has ever really considered the impact this has on new player retention. Just imagine is a corp could recruit some guy who's trying out eve, give him access to blueprints and let the guy build frigates and cruisers from the corps BPO's, get people involved in an entirely different aspect of eve that otherwise, requires either their own investment and finding public slots or, creating their own alt corp.
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 138	Posted - 2013.03.17 15:06:00 - [21] - Quote Quick Bump

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